Curse

Mike The Spike · Mar 13, 2008, 08:46 PM // 20:46

From my experience with Monking, the condition known as Dazed is pretty much the auto win button. You slap it on a caster (or more importantly, a Monk, which is where this post is going) and watch as they helplessly flail around like a chicken with their head cut off, trying with every ounce of their being to do something useful besides die. The typical answer to this, kiting, is rendered useless by snares such as cripple, the most common I can think of, and of course the knockdown.

Now before I go any further let me say that this is for 4v4 matches, pvp, and not the larger scale stuff where you can count on a second healer to get your butt out of the fryer, as it were. I go Mo/A when solo Monking and find without the self defense offered there I'm quite a bit of bait to the common Monk stompers lurking around RA, TA and AB. Here's a few of the builds I use:

[skill]Reversal of Fortune[/skill][skill]Gift of Health[/skill][skill]Zealous Benediction[/skill][skill]Guardian[/skill][skill]Spirit Bond[/skill][skill]Dismiss Condition[/skill][skill]Holy Veil[/skill][skill]Return[/skill]
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[skill]Reversal of Fortune[/skill][skill]Word of Healing[/skill][skill]Vigorous Spirit[/skill][skill]Guardian[/skill][skill]Protective Spirit[/skill][skill]Dismiss Condition[/skill][skill]Holy Veil[/skill][skill]Return[/skill]
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[skill]Reversal of Fortune[/skill][skill]Zealous Benediction[/skill][skill]Guardian[/skill][skill]Spirit Bond[/skill][skill]Mend Condition[/skill][skill]Mending Touch[/skill][skill]Holy Veil[/skill][skill]Return[/skill]
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[skill]Reversal of Fortune[/skill][skill]Zealous Benediction[/skill][skill]Guardian[/skill][skill]Spirit Bond[/skill][skill]Dismiss Condition[/skill][skill]Holy Veil[/skill][skill]Disciplined Stance[/skill][skill]Shield Bash[/skill]
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[skill]Reversal of Fortune[/skill][skill]Zealous Benediction[/skill][skill]Guardian[/skill][skill]Spirit Bond[/skill][skill]Dismiss Condition[/skill][skill]Holy Veil[/skill][skill]Smoke Powder Defense[/skill][skill]Return[/skill]

I'm sure you notice already that there's a pattern. Beside the Mo/W build, I prefer the Sin secondary for both mobility and defense. But then again a lot of people do these days. The latter build is the most efficient at dealing with Dazed users, or at least the ones I run into most frequently. Rangers are still deadly, no doubting that, but it's the Sin and Derv that I find use Dazed on my Monk the most. Both Sin and Derv use Beguiling Haze for spikes, and the Sin also has Temple Strike -- I consider it to be the more dangerous version since the Dazed is covered with Blind, and then covered more with Bleeding and Deep Wound from follow up attacks, typically.

As for the Derv version, their spike has been killed by the nerf to Pious Assault, but just the same, add in an IAS and I won't be able to cast anything anyway, so slap my poor Monk with your scythe till she dies. This is where the stances come in, something you can use even if you're knocked down (and trust me, you will be). Smoke Powder Defense might be the most valuable 'get my butt out of trouble' skill ever, at least when it comes to melee. It's saved me from many hammer spikes and other spikes as well. And unlike Dark Escape, which I know many people favor, even if the stance is removed the effect of the skill is still going to give you a few seconds of safety.

By now I'm sure you're wondering why I'm making a post at all about Dazed if I've found ways around it already, I'm with you, just hang in there though. (Not to mention other threads about the condition.)

I guess when it comes down to it I just feel guilty as hell devoting two slots on my bar to defense. Also, it doesn't really let me play around with builds -- six slots for actual Monking, two so I can stay alive TO Monk. Slapping in a Shield of Absorption would be fun, but I can't warrant taking it over Guardian, no way, not with the difference in recharge times. Same reason I can't take something like Shielding Hands, either. Gift of Health has to get the boot too if I wanna make sure I'm not insta-owned by a Paragon that ignores me most of the time, then switches to me just to lay out the Stunning Strike he's been building up.

Forgetting about the Dancing Dagger/Toxic Chill/blah blah blah gimmick builds for the moment, Dazed is pretty much the more common threat I'm coming across, and with multiple sources of availability, I can see why it's used.

So, what do you guys/gals think? If you've read through my post this long then I'm sure you've formed an opinion by now. I spared quite a few details for the sake of not making this entry TOO long (like saying that I know how to pre-prot, have a -20% Daze shield, and other basics), but I'd be happy for any advice or feedback. If you've come up with some nifty ways of beating Daze and still Monking effectively, by all means let me know.

Thanks for reading.

-Mike

Moderator Edit: I do not want to see anymore posts about Dazed needing or not needing a nerf. The title is not appropriate; I'd suggest you people read the actual post before posting. So, this is NOT about nerfing Dazed, so do not post this in here. Thank you. Misleading thread title has been changed, anyways.

71.229 · Mar 13, 2008, 08:51 PM // 20:51

Repeat after me.

Return + Dismiss. Return + Dismiss. Return + Dismiss.

The Fox · Mar 13, 2008, 08:56 PM // 20:56

The condition is one of the most difficult to apply and can be removed by good team coordination. Just because the teams are smaller and therefore less likely to be able to help remove that condition in a 4v4 enviorment, doesn't mean it should be nerfed to help your needs.

Most of the game is not set up for 4v4 so I'd say you need to just learn to overcome it or play soemthing other than monk. Nothing against you, but would you really enjoy playing a 4v4 match and never having a winner because the single monk was basically invincible? IMO stalemates are lame. There needs to be a solid way to take down the healer.

Motoko Kusanagi War · Mar 13, 2008, 09:06 PM // 21:06

The thing you need to consider and deal with is:

The game balances are widely based on GvG grounds.
Hence: GUILD Wars.

Also currently there are much more imbalanced builds in TA atm than any condition such as daze.

Mike The Spike · Mar 13, 2008, 09:24 PM // 21:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by 71.229

Repeat after me.

Return + Dismiss. Return + Dismiss. Return + Dismiss.

If it's a Sin hitting you then you'll never get Return off, even at the 1/4 cast(1/2 after being Dazed).

Arkantos · Mar 13, 2008, 09:26 PM // 21:26

It doesn't need to be changed at all. Dazed is only very strong in low-end PvP, where you can't guarantee a teammate with a condition removal. Since this game isn't balanced around low-end PvP, it's not going to get changed.

carbajac · Mar 13, 2008, 09:29 PM // 21:29

For me, if you're dazed, get your team to help you get it off, like getting the other monk to take it off or an /Mo draw or the necro skill they just buffed, whatever.

If you're by yourself, I like using shield bash + dismiss + running. Making a sin overextend without an escape route is win with C + Space killers on your team. If you're against BHA, try to get behind a wall or something and also watch him, BHA CAN be easy to avoid. Also, even while dazed, a well timed RoF has saved me from time to time.

Sometimes you're just gonna die and I'm ok with that.

Mike The Spike · Mar 13, 2008, 09:32 PM // 21:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

It doesn't need to be changed at all. Dazed is only very strong in low-end PvP, where you can't guarantee a teammate with a condition removal. Since this game isn't balanced around low-end PvP, it's not going to get changed.

So do you have any tactics that might be useful? Or should I just tank out the Dazed, you think?

Quote:

Originally Posted by carbajac

For me, if you're dazed, get your team to help you get it off, like getting the other monk to take it off or an /Mo draw or the necro skill they just buffed, whatever.

If you're by yourself, I like using shield bash + dismiss + running. Making a sin overextend without an escape route is win with C + Space killers on your team. If you're against BHA, try to get behind a wall or something and also watch him, BHA CAN be easy to avoid. Also, even while dazed, a well timed RoF has saved me from time to time.

Sometimes you're just gonna die and I'm ok with that.

Thanks for the tips.

I'll definitely take them with me.

Arkantos · Mar 13, 2008, 09:40 PM // 21:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike The Spike

So do you have any tactics that might be useful? Or should I just tank out the Dazed, you think?

There's really not much you can do other then smart positioning and defensive skills. Shield bash is going to give you time to remove dazed. If you can manage to use return, you'll have time to remove dazed. A pre prot and CoP is going to let you remove dazed right when it's applied. If those all fail, all you can do is try to get a lucky skill off.

Bowstring Badass · Mar 13, 2008, 09:43 PM // 21:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

It doesn't need to be changed at all. Dazed is only very strong in low-end PvP, where you can't guarantee a teammate with a condition removal. Since this game isn't balanced around low-end PvP, it's not going to get changed.

That and he has RoF... Spam 1/4 skills with dazed on you.

Mike The Spike · Mar 13, 2008, 09:44 PM // 21:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

There's really not much you can do other then smart positioning and defensive skills. Shield bash is going to give you time to remove dazed. If you can manage to use return, you'll have time to remove dazed. A pre prot and CoP is going to let you remove dazed right when it's applied. If those all fail, all you can do is try to get a lucky skill off.

Thanks bud, appreciate the feedback.

Bobby2 · Mar 13, 2008, 10:16 PM // 22:16

Quote:

if I wanna make sure I'm not insta-owned by a Paragon that ignores me most of the time, then switches to me just to lay out the Stunning Strike he's been building up.

IIRC you need to be suffering from a condition already for the Daze to trigger. Stay clean.

Quote:

Forgetting about the Dancing Dagger/Toxic Chill/blah blah blah gimmick builds for the moment, Dazed is pretty much the more common threat I'm coming across, and with multiple sources of availability, I can see why it's used.

lolwut? Daze is recognized as one of the most powerful conditions, but then again it requires a lot of investment to field. First of all, Elite slot anyone? Energy costs = usually also waaaaay high? Check recharges maybe?

Speaking as a Sin and Para player I can assure you large sacrifices have to be made in order to wield such power.

Oh, and:

Quote:

Return + Dismiss. Return + Dismiss. Return + Dismiss.

this.

Dem Babyz Iz Mine · Mar 13, 2008, 10:22 PM // 22:22

Daze is ftw...Too bad there are like three skills that can do it reliably. And aren't there like 9,234,523,755,266 ways to shut down mellee? I'd say monks and other spell-focused classes have it pretty good if Daze is all they have to worry about.

Mike The Spike · Mar 13, 2008, 10:25 PM // 22:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dem Babyz Iz Mine

Daze is ftw...Too bad there are like three skills that can do it reliably. And aren't there like 9,234,523,755,266 ways to shut down mellee? I'd say monks and other spell-focused classes have it pretty good if Daze is all they have to worry about.

I'm sure Mesmers (Diversion, ahhh!) and to an extent Necros (Wail of Doom, anyone) would have a bone to pick with you.

It's just easier to deal with Hexes if you know what you're doing. With Dazed it's pretty much hard to do anything, sans the tactics talked about before, of course.

Shaz · Mar 13, 2008, 11:12 PM // 23:12

Like everyone suggested and you already know, just kite and RoF here and there if you and your team isn't under pressure and wait it out. If you need to get it off, have your team on defense mode for a bit. If you have a warrior in the build, tell your warrior to lineback for you if he's hammer or Shock, or at the very least he will have Bull's Strike. Purge Signet can be great to deal with hexes and dazed if you're good with sets switching. It's also always a good idea to have an off monk condition removal in the build. When you're in RA, you'll just have to hope for the best and hope your team can help you.

Magikarp · Mar 13, 2008, 11:38 PM // 23:38

personally i rely a lot on RoF, and other 1/4 casting skills like everyone else said. great choices are SH, RoF, and Patient. pair those with skills like return or any other defensive utility and a smooth dismiss, and you'll be fine. if there are a poop load of condtions stacked on top (which is likely), stick with only the 1/4 skills, and wait till later for the other condtions (unless its DW).

kite kite kite.

Marionette · Mar 14, 2008, 12:02 AM // 00:02

Thanks for the post and for those who actually helped. I was encountering similar problems and wasn't quite sure what I was doing wrong to deal with it. I guess it's just one of those things you have to work with as much as possible in low-scale PVP, but I have a better idea of what to do about it now.

Div · Mar 14, 2008, 01:25 AM // 01:25

Daze is only really good when run in apr's condi build. Otherwise it's generally easy to remove.

Dallcingi · Mar 14, 2008, 01:27 AM // 01:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

This thread is about RA. God divine, lrn2read nub.

Daze owns in RA. <3

Agree.. its hard to deal with unless someother guy draw on you or if you got another monk but that is very rare...
all u can do while dazed is a timely rof or sig of rejuv... or balanced stance so u wont get kd.

LifeInfusion · Mar 14, 2008, 02:38 AM // 02:38

In the days of boon prot, daze was laughable. One contemplation of purity and it was gone usually since you have a few enchants on you (and RoF is easy to get on you).
Nowadays the only solution when removing it when it is buried ala Broadhead + Poison is Purge Conditions (1/4 cast) which is on a long cooldown. You could use signets (Signet of Removal , Remedy Signet, Plague Signet) or plague touch but no sane person would run those on a monk.